Spike Jonze: 20 Year Issue

Photos by Jonze Collection.

This interview appears in the 20th-anniversary Issue (buy a copy here) and is apart of the Analog To Digital: 20 Years of Culture and Change Podcast Series (listen to it here).  

‘He’s a giggly little liar,’ is what I had to say about Spike after relistening to our interview. 

Not wrong. Spike is a giggler and lied through most of this conversation, but really, we are all sort of liars in this industry, aren't we? In all kinds of creative and narrative professions but especially in filmmaking, you have to be a bit of a shitty little fibber to be able to conceive of vivid, worthwhile stories and tell them with conviction and entertainment value. A well developed story teller is a well practiced liar, and among other things, Spike is both.

You’re probably wondering to yourself, ‘wait, which parts of this interview are lies? Did he not ride for Flip? Did he not win an Oscar? Can I not buy his DC Tour Jersey on eBay?’ No, those are all true. He didn’t fakie 360 flip Santa Monica triple set, but he did half cab flip it, and he won two Academy Awards. Or did he? It’s hard to tell. With a guy as talented as Spike Jonze, the things that are lies today may very well be cold hard truths tomorrow.

We’ve done a lot of things with Spike over the years, but haven’t ever had a real formal sit down; a fireside chat, so to speak, until now. We sat at our respective firesides - Spike with a small puppy on his lap and a mug o warm something in his hand - to discuss his strategies for scaring the absolute shit out of those foolish enough to buy a ticket to one of his films, the worst person he’s ever had to work with on set, and how it feels to be getting kicked off of Girl/Chocolate for lack of footage.

Where were you twenty years ago? What were you doing in 2003?

I had a twisted ankle, and I was icing it, and it was pretty black and blue. Pretty swollen. So swollen that I couldn’t quite get my shoe on. 

A rolled ankle?

Yeah, the kind that just keeps getting rolled.

And that was your whole year right there?

No, but thats where I was twenty years ago.

Oh, exactly twenty years ago?

Down to the minute, yeah.

What was the recovery time like 

Average, probably four weeks to getting to 100%.

How has that rolled ankle impacted your career?

Well it rolls a lot easier. Once you roll it, it’ll roll 10% easier next time, and it compounds, you know, like compounding interest rate style. 

What’d you roll it on?

What’d I roll it at? I rolled a seven, then I crapped out, and rolled two sixes on my next roll. 

No I mean were you like kickflip back tail-ing?

No I was jumping over a ravine, not skating. You can roll your ankle super easy cause you know how running shoes kind of have that squared off raised platform? They’re kind of too square, so you’ll either be flat or on your ankle. You know what I’m saying? That’s why people don’t skate in running shoes, right?

Don’t they? Skating in shit that isn’t skateboard shoes has come into fashion.

But those shoes that have a real thick heel and a thick toe? People skate in those?

I guarantee you some kid is trying to make that a thing.

Oh, yeah, I’m sure that’s true. 

It’s interesting how most people have said, ‘oh, in 2003, I turned pro’ but for you the biggest thing was the rolled ankle.

Oh, I had just turned pro as well.

Oh right, for who again?

Uh, Flip. 

You were on at the same time as Arto then, sick.

Yeah we went on tour a lot together, a lot of European summers. 

You were on DC too, right?

Yeah, I got kicked off though because I burned down the megaramp. 

Did you keep your matching DC Tour jersey?

Yeah, it’s actually on eBay right now if you want to buy it. You really know my skate career I’m impressed.

You’re a tough person to interview because there are so many things you’ve already been asked. That in mind, what is your perfect Sunday?

Man, what is a perfect sunday? Pretty lazy. I try to have it as quiet as possible because the rest of the week often isn’t so quiet. Quiet sundays. 

Wake up, don’t get out of bed-

That’s ideal. If you can wake up and not get out of bed, that’s the dream, although that’s not always possible. 

Do you get out of bed at some point? 

By like eleven I’ll get out of bed, but a Sunday morning YouTube hole- that’s pretty good.

I’m going to do softball question/hardball question. That was your softball. Here is your hardball. What has been the biggest cultural change in your industry in the last twenty years?

What is a cultural change? What does that mean?

The way things are done, processes, the way things are understood, the way things interact - everything to do with your existence within filmmaking. In skating, a big answer has been that people on Instagram are as famous as pros, that’s a cultural change. 

Right, well I guess I don’t think about filmmaking so much as I just think about being creative. There’s way more outlets to be creative in. The internet created all of this democratization of creativity. If I was twenty now, I know I’d be making all these videos on YouTube or Instagram or PayPal - because that’s where the best videos are - but that’s so radical. It’s almost like the camcorder in the 80’s was the first seed. Someone’s mom had a camcorder and it was a big thing, but by the 90’s, they were more accessible. With that technology, you don’t have to have a camera or a studio, you can create things with your friends in the back of a station wagon. 

Lets say you have a date coming over to the house. What’re you cooking?

Eggos, and patte, and a little souffle with sausage rind. 

Are the Eggos a platter on which to build?

Yeah you put some creme fraiche on it, and then dust it with a little cocoa powder. 

Did you have that for breakfast?

No, thats if I was making a big dinner with people coming over.

If you wanted to be impressive-

If I wanted to impress, yeah. 

What do you think you’ve had to adapt to the most in the last twenty years?

Hmm. I don’t know. Filmmaking became more accessible, like how we were just talking about, but I think that because I came out of making skate videos, I was always making things on minidv or whatever was the new thing. I was familiar with grabbing a video camera and just making something with friends. What’d I have to adapt to technologically? I’m not sure.

Do you think that making skate videos has built into you a certain adaptability? Resourcefulness?

Yeah and you also are watching what's happening in front of the camera. I didn’t know it at the time but I was following the story. Following what was interesting to me and pointing the camera at it, hoping that that would be interesting to other people. That probably sort of informed how I’m creative with things moving forward. 

What is a company that you wish you were pro for?

Well, if I get kicked off of Girl/Chocolate, I’m going to try and get on Baker. 

Why Baker?

Because of The Boss, basically. 

What’s the vibe at Girl/Chocolate? Are you getting heat for not filming enough?

Yeah, I’m not getting enough footage, definitely. Rick is on me about it. It’s kind of stressful. They put me on triple warning.

We haven’t seen a part in a long time.

It’s maybe been ten years since I got a clip.

What was your last clip?

I think a fakie tre down the triple set in Santa Monica. 

Oh yeah, I remember that! We’ll include the link to that in this podcast.

Please, yeah. I’m still riding on my old haydays. 

What has kept you inspired to continue on in this industry?

When you say this industry, which are you talking about?

Not professional skating, but filmmaking.

To be honest, I feel really fortunate that I don’t just work in filmmaking, I get to go in all of these different directions. Music or theatre or documentaries or skateboarding. I think that- what’s the question?

What’s kept you inspired?

Inspired? I think that’s part of it. I can follow my curiosity or excitement to wherever it goes and not necessarily just work in films or music videos or skating. I can follow what excites me. 

Who has been the worst person to work with?

Hmm. The worst person was Roger Rabbit, actually.  

He‘s difficult?

He is difficult. He comes off like a lovable guy on screen, but he’s tough. 

I’ve heard some bad things. He’s a bad tipper.

That’s a telltale sign of not being a good person.

Or when they’re rude to the waiter?

Yeah, that’s him. That’s Roger Rabbit. 

Who has been the best person to work with?

Oh man. 

Was it Roger Rabbit?

Well yeah, actually, now that you mention it, it was Jessica Rabbit. She’s just very directable, you give her a note after a take and she really hones in on the essence of what the note is about, tweaks her performance. She’s incredible.

Well she went to Juliard, she’s an artist.

True, yeah. You know her resume very well. 

We’ve worked together and she’s remarkable. And she looks great for her age!

No it’s true. I first worked with her in 1952 and she looks almost the same. 

We’ve only gotten older and she looks, I’d say better.

True. That’s depressing.

How do you think that your writing process has changed in the last twenty years?

I think that I got less anxious. I was very, ‘Oh god I gotta figure this out right now! This isn’t working!’ I’m less anxious and more trusting that I’m going to do the best that I can with what’s in front of me that day and not stressing about if it’s all connecting. Sometimes you write a scene and you’re kind of just slugging through it. It’s not working but I can’t figure out why it's not working. I know that if I just write something instead of sitting there and being anxious and wondering why it’s so shitty and starting to doubt yourself and the whole thing you’re writing - where I would have done that in the past, now I just write the bad version of it and in writing the bad version, I might maybe see what the scene needs, or I can come back to it later and think, ‘oh it’s so obvious now what it needs to be.’ Sometimes it’s easier to react to something than to conjure it if it’s not coming that day. Sometimes you’re more dry and things don’t come in the same sort of juicy way that they might come when you’re feeling really creative. 

Are you rigid about writing a certain amount per day?

No, I just don’t take on any other work because I can’t write in a couple of hours here or there. I have friends who can only carve out a couple hours a day and be really productive. I can’t do that. I need to not be working on anything else because I feel like a lot of my writing happens in daydream time, driving my car or walking to the store or taking a shower. That daydream time is the time that gets diluted if you work all the time; that percolation potency period - PPP, I call it, copyrighted - it gets diluted into multiple projects. I just try to work on one thing, go in everyday nine to five. 

Nine to five? 

Well as long as I’m there for that time. I might not write that whole time, I might procrastinate or go for a walk or take a nap. Take a nap, most definitely. 

Do you have things that you do that unblock you?  

I might go see a movie in the daytime, that’s pretty fun if I want to give myself a day of hookie. 

What’s the last thing you saw that was good in a theater?

It was scary, it was really good, I saw it in a theater, it’s called Talk To Me. Did you see that movie? It’s so scary, so unsettling. It came out about a month ago, I think it’s Australian. 

Oh!

You know what I’m talking about? With the hand? It was really well done, really well made and so well acted. So what happened was I went to see this movie and we were about half an hour into it and it gets to one of the more intense scenes. As intense as I’ve seen in a movie. Just so upsetting and scary and like, I won’t give it away, but this scene happens and something happens to a kid, and the movie is just getting creepier and creepier and more unsettling, and it was the day that the hurricane was hitting the west coast, and right during this scene, suddenly the entire building started radically shaking.

What the fuck?

The alarms went off, and like, I am so unsettled, I am out of my body, and the alarms go off and there’s a guy’s voice going, ‘evacuate the theater!’ My partner is very freaked out, and as we are going out of the theater, this stoner kid at the concession stand was like, ‘it’s probably a tsunami,’ and my partner, who was so freaked out, fully believed that it was a tsunami because some stoner kid said there was. So we get outside and there was no tsunami of course, it was just an earthquake on the same day as a hurricane - a sign that the world is ending. Anyways, we were so freaked out in that parking lot. You know when you see a really creepy movie like Hereditary? Did you see that movie?

Yeah, I just saw it. 

That movie unsettled me all day. I just felt like I wasn’t quite in real life anymore. So that feeling from Talk To Me mixed with the alarm and alleged typhoon - I felt very unsettled. I still haven’t finished the movie because I’m a little scarred from it.

There are theaters where you can go and see Titanic and the water drips and chairs shake. Is that something that you want to bring to your future films?

Maybe but you’d have to rig the entire theater to shake, and all of the people in the theater are in on it, and they are screaming, and you’d have to have the entire theater except the one person who bought a ticket be actors and so everyone is in full panic, so the one person who bought a ticket has no idea, but all the actors are screaming and crying and trying to contact their parents. 

I’m from Hawaii and a couple of years ago there was a false alarm for a North Korean missile strike.

I remember that! Were you there?

I was there, and I remember my mom called me and was like, ‘I hope I was a good mother, goodbye.’

Oh my god!

People were putting their kids in sewers. One of my friends’ dad told her and her mom that he is gay-

What?! Wow!

He was like, ‘I love you and I want you to know me completely.’ 

So what happened? Did they all become closer and he was able to live out? Or did he go back in the closet?

They got a divorce. It’s kind of rough. So yeah, this is the sort of experiential element that you want to bring to your films?

Well, I mean, now I’m having doubts. But wait so what was it like for you? Did you hear it from the radio? Or from your mom when she called you?

We all got these alerts on our phones. 

Did it just say you’re going to die in half an hour? Put a link to this story in the podcast article by the way because anyone who is listening to this and didn’t hear about it when it happened should read about this because it is so crazy that this happened to the entire population of an entire state. 

And I mean, I didn’t live close to the military base which I assume was the target, but close enough that I’d die. 

So what’d you do? 

I got that alert on my phone, talked to my parents, left an embarrassing voicemail on this girls phone, and sat with my cat on my couch and just waited. 

Wow. I can’t believe- wow. 

I will say that the parties that were had that night, were fucking incredible.

I bet yeah I bet they were. Okay and did that hour, did you have any revelations? Any thoughts about your life?

Are you interviewing me?

Well this is an important conversation, I might learn something good here. 

Revelations… it was an embarrassing voicemail, but I don’t regret leaving it. That’s one. I realized I didn’t want to be born and live and die in the same neighborhood, and now I live in New York. 

Wow! That’s really big! 

So I guess, don’t waste time? Spike, listen, don’t waste time. 

Yeah, yeah I like that, that’s good. 

Leave the voicemail and don’t waste time.

Don’t waste time, and leaving the voicemail meaning like don’t- do you mean like being more open with your heart and don’t be scared to show your heart?

Stop shoving shit down. Do you shove shit down, do you think?

Mmmmm… I don’t think so now, but I definitely did when I was younger, but I’m old. I’m like a hundred.

What’re you, like forty?

No, no, I’m fifty three. 

Same shit.

No but I mean I’ve worked through a lot of shit. 

If this is too personal, I can cut it out: are you a therapy guy?

Yeah, for sure. You don’t have to cut that out. 

My interview with Mike Mills started with us arguing about therapy.

I love Mike Mills. He is so pure. 

He was talking about doing therapy over Zoom and having kind of a disagreement about it, and he was like, ‘yeah hit record.’ 

Hit record! That’s great, that is so great. I love Mike. He was the first guy to teach me breathing exercises, like if you’re stressed on set. I was doing something in San Francisco in- this might have been 2003! Where was I in 2003? I was on a Southwest Airlines flight from Oakland to Burbank with Mike Mills.

Just stressed out?

Not stressed out, but just talking about being stressed on set, and Mike taught me this breathing exercise. I’ll probably mess this up but- here, we’ll do it together. What you do is you breathe in for five seconds, you hold it for five seconds, and then you breathe out for five seconds, and you hold the exhale for five seconds, it’s like this square of five. Here, we’ll do it together for the folks at home.

[Spike then leads me on several reps of this breathing exercise. It works.]

I just happened to run into him on a plane and as always, had a great conversation, and learned this breathing exercise. 

I asked Mike what advice he would give himself in 2003, and he said to chill out. What advice would you give yourself?

I mean, same answer, but also going back to writing with anxiety. Anxiety doesn’t help you. It’s hard to get rid of. People say, ‘oh, just don’t be anxious. Just don’t be depressed,’ but it’s tough and obviously not that simple. Doing the work to free myself of that anxiety- being anxious wastes so much energy that could be spent doing a lot of other things.

Have you heard of pits and peaks?

No.

I went on tour with a band last year and they go in a circle at the end of the day sharing their pit and peak. Peak is the best point, and pit is the lowest point of the day. In your career, what do you think has been your peak and pit?

Hmm a pit is accidentally poisoning my oak tree and, you know, watching it die, doing everything I could to keep it alive, and my peak would be Beagle filming my last skate part. 

Is it VX or HD Beagle?

He pulled out the VX for me for sure.  

And then winning an Academy Award is somewhere…

Oh, yeah somewhere in between those two. 

It happened, but I mean, Beagle for sure.

Oh, yeah, yeah, Beagle for sure. Nah I mean that was awesome too, though.  

What do you think of Monster Children and print publications? What’s the value?

Well, obviously, magazines went through a huge massacre from the internet, but the ones who survived are beautiful objects. Monster Children, Closer - they are objects that you want to hold. The paper feels nice, the photos are incredible, the editor has a really specific point of view - the magazine isn’t driven by publicists feeding articles, it’s people with curiosity. I think that magazines like that will always exist because there’s something nice about having an object that was given to you by somebody that cares about the same things that you care about. 

Is there anything you’d like to say, Spike? 

I think that teeth are important, I think that soup is underrated, and I think that we should all try to wear our shoes a little longer so that we don’t consume so much rubber and waste material.