Getting Coffee With Lindsey Jordan Of Snail Mail
IMAGES BY NAZ KAWAKAMI AND ETTA FRIEDMAN
‘Don’t worry, she’s a really good interviewer,’ is a phrase I was told more than once while preparing to interview Lindsey Jordan, better known as Snail Mail, and it was true.
Lindsey is a talented singer/songwriter, an excellent performer, and a shockingly good interviewer. For the first fifteen minutes or so, Lindsey would ask me every question I asked her, which was a first for me. She asked if I liked Pumpkin in my coffee, what Hogwarts house I belonged to, and what podcasts I’ve been listening to, and not in a way of being polite, but leaning in to hear my answer. It felt less like work and more like a conversation. She genuinely cared to know. Lindsey is sincere, engaging, and concise about what she means, possessing an earnest consideration and thoughtfulness that has reflected clearly and unabashedly in her music.
Snail Mail’s first album, 2018’s Lush was youthful and moody, dipped in clean, warm guitar tones and full-ranging production, balanced and built around Lindsey’s painfully-sincere lyrics and vocals. The album featured memorable, instantly hummable songs that felt like how you felt when you were the teenaged-something that Lindsey was when she wrote them. Necessary songs and necessary feelings as adolescence begins to come to an end and adulthood closes in. Snail Mail’s second and most recent album, 2021’s Valentine, ventures further sonically than Lush did, picking up orchestrations and even synthesizers for more lashing, impactful compositions. The album takes place within that transitional period - adulthood taking shape. The album is heartfelt, articulate, and brims with the gravity and relentlessness of heartbreak in the way that only the youthful can feel, but felt in a body and witnessed by a brain growing into a grown-up. The album addresses a relationship falling to bits in a particular time that is often underrepresented in culture - the transition from teen to twenties, the years right as you can enter a bar but still feel like a kid. Valentine did a good job of exploring those awful, raw, exposed years and the intensity of emotions that come with the experience of heartbreak and the time when you begin to discover the sort of person you are; how wonderful and how horrible you are capable of feeling.
One cold rainy afternoon in Brooklyn, we got some coffee and muffins, took some dumb pictures, and had a long chat about Hogwarts houses, funny crime podcasts, writing lyrics that really mean something, suffering TikTok hits, and truly knowing thyself.
Alright, now we are recording.
Well, good, all of that before was off the record.
Yeah, you’re good. How’s this going? How’s New York City?
It’s good! I’ve been coming back and forth as needed. East Williamsburg is nice because it has a lot of parking and I love my car.
Back and forth?
I live in Maryland. I lived in New York for almost four and a half years, and on the Turnstile tour, I got an email from my landlord saying that the building where I was living was getting turned into a hotel. That place wasn’t it for me, anyway, it had a lot of plumbing issues.
What was the plan then? What’d you do?
My plan was to buy a house and live in the woods—I was ready to invest and wanted to own property, but then I didn’t have time. They told me originally that I had half a year to find a new place, but then as soon as I got back from tour they told me I had to leave, so I put all my stuff in storage and am just bumming at my parents’ house.
How’s it commuting back and forth?
It’s not too bad. I just stay at Etta’s, and it works out because so much of the stuff that I have to do is here anyway. It’s like a 4 hour drive. It’s kind of fucked up, but I love driving. Throw the audiobook on and I’m good.
Are you a podcast person?
Yeah! I do Last Podcast On The Left. It’s half funny, half true crime.
That’s a hard combination to achieve.
It is, but they do it well. They’re funny. There was that other show with the guy who got kicked off because he was too pervy and excited about the murders - this podcast isn’t like that. It’s tasteful but funny. I’m a big true crime person. How about you?
“I know that I don’t want to keep being a ‘sad girl’ because I don’t like the space that that has created. I’m not a sad girl, I was just making music that I liked.”
I am constantly listening to ID10T which spells out ‘idiot’ and it’s this dude Chris Hardwick interviewing comedians, musicians - whoever. The goal of the show is to get people to talk about what they’re into or nerd out on something. Like if they interview a band, they talk about what they do outside of music.
Oh, cool!
Yeah, I’ve kind of stolen that. What do you do outside of music?
I don’t know how to say it without sounding- I don’t know. I’ve been trying to do some acting lately.
That’s sick! That doesn’t sound weird at all.
Yeah, I’m a big movie fan, which takes up a lot of my time, too. I was never like, ‘I want to be a singer/actor!’ I just was getting opportunities to try it out and hone my skills, I got to be in a movie recently which was really cool.
No way, what movie?
It’s called I Saw The TV Glow, it’s an A24 movie and it’s coming out at some point. That’s something that I am genuinely interested in honing. I’m also a big reader, love to read. At the moment, I’m really on my gaming shit.
What are you playing?
Hogwarts Legacy. Big time. It’s taken over my life. I was trying to make myself feel better about living at my parents’ house, so I bought myself this big gaming TV, and my room’s not very big so I have to sit on the floor in this beanbag to take in the whole thing.
What house are you?
Slytherin. What are you?
I’m not playing.
What about just in principle?
What house am I in principle? Hmmm…
Well not in principle. I mean, in principle I’m not a Slytherin, I’m a Gryffindor. I’ve been listening to the audio books again and I was thinking about how a lot of people have made their personality, like, ‘Oh, I’m a Slytherin.’
Like a little bit culty?
A little culty, but I feel like in the books, the original point was that there are good people in all of the houses. Going back through the books, though, they kind of make it sound like Slytherin is the Eugenics house. Like, purebred, old money, everyone should be pure-blooded, which is not at all what I’m about and doesn’t really make sense with how it was originally written. You know what I mean?
“What’s that saying? ‘Know thyself.’”
Do you have time to be doing all of this?
No, no, not at all. I have a self-sabotage issue. One of the only ways that I can truly zone out from all of my work anxieties is to do something that takes me completely out of my own head, like RPGs. I only do that when I don’t have any time to do it, and I make myself extremely late for things because I’m like, ‘if I can get a little more done in this level, then I’m gonna feel really good.’ It’s weird. My PS5 is at Etta’s, I travel with it. But no, I don’t have time for any of this stuff.
What about filmmaking?
The movie thing is funny, I’m trying to figure out where it fits in my life. I’m trying to get into acting classes and stuff, but even talking to directors or teachers, they ask if I have time, and I often have to say no.
Are you writing new music, too?
Yeah, totally. That’s been a weird thing for me lately. I’m trying to understand myself better as a writer now, whereas before, as a teenager, I just wanted to make music and be in the Baltimore scene. I didn’t expect my Bandcamp stuff to get that sort of attention. Making Lush, I had the resources and threw everything I had at it. Now, or even when making Valentine, I’ve realized that I don’t actually know how I work. I’m older and I have so much space to think about what I’m doing - I’m trying to figure out what I want to say, how I want to say it, and the areas that I’d like to grow in.
What direction do you think you’re growing toward?
I’m not sure. I know that I don’t want to keep being a ‘sad girl’ because I don’t like the space that that has created. I’m not a sad girl, I was just making music that I liked. I don’t want to keep being that, but I also don’t want to seem like I’m changing up just for the sake of changing up. I’m not sad, I’m good.
How far along do you think you are?
I’ve written a lot of really cool music so far, and with the lyrics, I’m trying to be really intentional about what I’m saying. I don’t like when lyrics don’t mean anything, and I want to be a serious enough writer that I’m saying something and not just throwing cool phrases at the wall. I don’t feel confident or comfortable making music if it isn’t about something that matters to me.
How do you think your creative processes have changed or formed in order to accommodate that?
I know myself a lot more as a musician. I’m a perfectionist to a debilitating degree where I get so emotionally caught up in things, wondering if it’ll get thrown away. I almost don’t want to put myself through the wringer of working on something for five months and then realizing that it isn’t worth it. When I sit down, I try to just move myself along if that makes sense.
What do you mean?
Like if I’m picking apart this little chord progression, I try to force myself to move on to the chorus because I’m tearing myself to shreds and not getting anything done. It is now about me being aware of myself and my own quirks because they’re strong. A lot of it is also in my head. I don’t work with anyone else when I write, which is probably just a pride thing or something. I like to do it all by myself, and me in my head. I try to work every day now, which is something new. I still work at a very slow pace, but it moves.
It sounds like you feel some pressure to accomplish something or perform or deliver on something. Would you agree, and how do you deal with that?
Yeah, I do feel the pressure. At the same time, though, every part of me opposes the pressure.
By playing Hogwarts Legacy.
I have to do that, otherwise I’d be a ball of stress. I’m giving myself a break. I didn’t really believe that burnout was real when I was younger, but now I do, and part of how I deal with it is by forcing myself to do tasks that make me feel calm and relaxed. Little breaks, whereas I used to just think it was a waste of time. I’m really confident in my taste and I know I won’t make something that I don’t think is great, but it takes a lot for me to squeeze that out.
“ I think that anybody who is encouraging you to make a TikTok hit is probably brain dead.”
That sounds so emotionally laborious. Do you read reviews for your stuff?
It is emotionally laborious, but only because I care. I really try to avoid reading what people had to say about Valentine versus Lush because I know people had some big opinions, and the more you shy away from your own intentions and start listening to outside voices, the further you get from your instincts. When you read all the reviews and bring in all of these outside voices, you start to drown out your instincts and can lose sight of what you originally set out to do.
Yeah, it’s hard to not be guided by what is successful or what is trending or what other people say they want to hear.
It’s hard for me not to try and make Lush 2 because people love that record, and it did great, but I have to figure out what I think and what I want. When I made Lush, nobody had any strong opinions about Snail Mail, so I felt free to do what I wanted to do, and I was a kid, so people were like, ‘yay, she did it!’ The biggest fear for me is not being able to continue playing music, and I’d have to go and get a real job, but I also want to make sure that I am listening to my inner self and making things that I think are good and important.
He and I were just talking about how the internet, social media, and streaming platforms all really encourage a certain type of music, which is 1-minute and 30-second tracks, hook, all chorus, no bridge.
I definitely am too neurotic to make sound-bite music. It’s like a math equation to me, where I’m like, ‘alright, the first verse has to sound like this, the chorus has to be like this,’ which keeps me away from making those sorts of songs. I see people not actually making any money off of having a TikTok hit, and I don’t think it feels great because they still only have like 30 people at their show.
I’ve spoken to some people who have had TikTok hits and they said that if anything it damaged their career. They pour their souls out making their art, and all anyone knows is that one sound bite from that one song. It’s disheartening. I saw Steve Lacy and everyone in the crowd only knew that one song, and it sucked because he is amazing.
Oh my god, I saw those videos of his tour. He broke that person’s camera.
Yeah! Holy shit! But I respect it, man, he’s such an amazing songwriter. Underappreciated.
Definitely, he’s so good. I will say that that song rips, the whole song. I think that anybody who is encouraging you to make a TikTok hit is probably brain dead. Don’t listen to them. Usually, those tactics don’t work. I’ve never done an actual ‘tactic’ and had it work. I’ve had long, hard talks with people about how I present myself on social media. I had a period where I’d be drinking a glass of wine in my bra and go on Instagram live like, ‘what upppp’, but now I’d rather not leave too much damning evidence of anything.
It’s weird to me how much of a factor social media is in music, even in my job as a journalist. It is dumb.
Oh, it is so stupid. I talk to bands about this a lot. You have to acknowledge that this is the game now and decide how much you want to participate or engage in that. There’s definitely a ‘way’ to get big, and that is by appearing big. Post up with famous people all the time, comment on everyone’s posts acting like you’re friends with them, get on everyone’s songs—there’s something about the ferocity of putting yourself in people’s face like that that I just cannot get behind. Oversaturating the world with yourself. There is a way to force people into thinking that you are the shit, marketing tactics that really do work. I am not shaming anyone for doing that, I think everyone should do what they want to do to get their bag, but I can’t do that and live with myself.
Are you still having fun?
Yes, I am having fun. When I am sitting down and writing music I love, I feel so much like myself. It makes me feel so in touch with myself every day, and people actually care and listen and come to see me play. The only thing that’s hard is that it’s such an honor and privilege to be able to do this job that I worry about making a wrong choice and throwing it all away. I’d like to keep doing it, and doing it in a way that is good and true to me. It’s sort of scary, but I am definitely still having fun.
This is the question I love to ask last: having had your experience, what advice would you give to someone starting out who would like to be in your position creatively and professionally?
I would say the most important thing is to know what your thing is and keep your head in it. This world can be really intoxicating. There are parties, everyone thinks you’re cool—a lot of things start seeming like they come before music, and the only thing that should matter if you want to be a successful musician is practicing and becoming a better songwriter. Work on your thing and be humble. Especially because I was such a young teenager when I started, I thought that all that stuff was really cool, and I watched it happen with people where they got too involved with everything around music instead of the music. It always has to be about the craft. What’s that saying? ‘Know thyself.’
Get to know Lindsey’s ‘thyself’, here.